Where is the market for AutoCAD for Mac?

After hearing of a book publisher canceling their Acad/Mac text until the academic market is proven, Bill Fane remarked to me:

Interesting. They are either right or wrong:

Right:
     - Macs are not often used in engineering.

Wrong:
    - Macs are much more heavily used in certain architectural areas.
    - There has been a lot of excitement in the CAD community (blogs, etc) about CAD software generally on the Mac, and not just AutoCAD.

Right:
    - Is there a real market, or are the bloggers simply hyped because it is something different to chat about? 

I would add that Acad/Mac is up against ARES for Mac at a quarter the price, and (soon to be) DraftSight for Mac (free). What with Ashlar, Vectorworks, Graphisoft, and more, Autodesk is facing a crowded market of both direct and indirect competitors.

Comments

[Stewart]

Don't forget about NX? As of June 2009....

[Chris Wade]

I have to say that there is a market for CAD on the Mac.....Mac market share is growing faster than Windows now, this can be attributed to things like the iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad.

Eventually, I can see our office making the switch, Macs last longer and come with most of the basic software that we would need to run a business.

This will not happen overnight, but will be a slow gradual process, the next time we need to replace a computer, it will most likely be with a Mac, initially running Windows with a combination of Parallels (or VMWare Fusion) and Boot Camp. Eventually, as more Macs are purchased our existing licenses will be converted to Mac based licenses and Parallels and Boot Camp will not be needed.

Again, this is not going to be instant, but I could see it being completed within the next 3-5 years. I just hope AutoDesk doesn't give up on AutoCAD for Mac by the time everyone has a chance to switch.

There are also many firms that we work with that currently use Macs with a setup as described or use alternative software like ArchiCAD (Yuck! Most of them make a mess of DWG files, DraftSight seems to do ok though.)

[Norm C.]

@ Stewart

NX is in a completely different league than the discussed products. AutoCAD and its competitors are mainly 2D tools, while NX is a high-end 3D parametric package.

But I'm glad to see (I just checked) that Siemens PLM ported its latest release NX 7.5 on Mac and Linux. Since they skipped V7, I thought they weren't going to support these OS anymore.

[DF]

Right:

There's serious percentages of third-level students who buy and use Macs as their preferred computers. Do you really think that the CAD industry isn't aware of this?

[DF]

Egads - that should, of course, have been 'wrong'.

[Bob-H]

There might have been a market for Mac-based Autocad shortly after 1992, when there was hope that the CEOs of Autodesk would change their minds about discontinuing it, because of the Mac platform's small percentage of the computing market. Since then, most Mac users have moved on from Autocad and discovered a better world, including myself. And with BIM replacing CAD in many AEC areas, Autocad is not the leader of design software -- at least compared to 15 years ago.

[Tim Markoski]

The elephant is the room is Apple itself.
They are a terrible company to deal with as a 3rd-Party developer.
Microsoft has a far better relationship with the software development community than Apple will ever have.

Apple get very little revenue from its Mac products.
They put very little effort and resources into the product line at this point.

Its clear that their efforts are focused on mobile computing.

Apple couldn't care less about helping the Mac platform gain market-share.

Without market-share to justify the expense, expecting Mac to be a viable alternative to the Windows world for CAD is wishful thinking at best and delusional at worst.

ACAD on Mac is a solution in search of a problem.

[DF]

They put very little effort and resources into the product line at this point.

iOS and MacOS are just the same basic operating system with different GUI widgets. So 'more' resources for one or the other doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

Without market-share to justify the expense, expecting Mac to be a viable alternative to the Windows world for CAD is wishful thinking at best and delusional at worst.

Mom and pop don't count, neither do clerical drones in cubicles. What does count is what third-level college students are using, and guess how that one's going for Apple?

[Tim Markoski]

iOS and MacOS are markedly different operating systems.
Only the completely uninitiated would make any claim contrary to that.

The school, the schools.
Please..
This has always been the claim Mac lovers make about market share.
After DECADES of being used in elementary and secondary education,
Mac market share is essentially unchanged.

No company cares what college students are using especially if it has no presence in the REAL World industrial Market.

The idea that the education market somehow leverages the REAL WORLD is foolish
and shows a complete lack of understanding of how businesses actually operate.

ACAD on Mac is a complete waste of time and AutoDesk will kill it very quickly
when it becomes abundantly clear to the bean counters that this experiment of theirs is a failure.

[Tim Markoski]

iOS and MacOS are markedly different operating systems.
Only the completely uninitiated would make any claim contrary to that.

The school, the schools.
This has always been the claim Mac lovers make about market share.
Please..
After DECADES of being used in elementary and secondary education,
Mac market share is essentially unchanged.

No company cares what college students are using especially if it has no presence in the REAL WORLD industrial market.

The idea that the education market somehow leverages the REAL WORLD is foolish
and shows a complete lack of understanding of how businesses actually operate.

ACAD on Mac is a complete waste of time and AutoDesk will kill it very quickly
when it becomes abundantly clear to the bean counter that this experiment of theirs is a failure.

[DF]

iOS and MacOS are markedly different operating systems.
Only the completely uninitiated would make any claim contrary to that.

There's only a couple of APIs in the difference. You, sir, are an idiot.

[snip more trolling]

The idea that the education market somehow leverages the REAL WORLD is foolish
and shows a complete lack of understanding of how businesses actually operate.

I suspect that you're just swinging by here to troll about the 'Mac' side of the news, because otherwise, you'd be well aware of how AutoCAD (and Solidworks) in the secondary schools and colleges is driving graduates to be familiar with and demand this software, which "businesses" in our field take note of in what they buy, let me assure you.

ACAD on Mac is a complete waste of time and AutoDesk will kill it very quickly
when it becomes abundantly clear to the bean counters that this experiment of theirs is a failure.

Care to wager on that?

[DF]

iOS and MacOS are markedly different operating systems.
Only the completely uninitiated would make any claim contrary to that.

The two differ only by a couple of APIs. I would suggest that you go ask someone with a computer science background to confirm this for you (I have both that and engineering under my belt, but clearly to you I'm "uninitiated").

The school, the schools.
Please..
This has always been the claim Mac lovers make about market share.
After DECADES of being used in elementary and secondary education,
Mac market share is essentially unchanged.

No company cares what college students are using especially if it has no presence in the REAL World industrial Market.

The idea that the education market somehow leverages the REAL WORLD is foolish
and shows a complete lack of understanding of how businesses actually operate.

Go tell that to Autodesk or SolidWorks' academic programs. Do you actually work in our industry?

ACAD on Mac is a complete waste of time and AutoDesk will kill it very quickly
when it becomes abundantly clear to the bean counters that this experiment of theirs is a failure.

I'll bet you good money that it doesn't.

[Tim Markoski]

FYI DF, I'm a Developer and an Engineer who owns his own business.
At first blush they make appear similar but
iOS and MacOS markedly different systems and their implementation clearly shows that.
The idea that the difference is "only a couple of APIs" is silly.
Darwin doesn't make them the same.

It's obvious you're a Mac zealot but you're ignorant of how business actually works.
Time for joining us in the real world.

The CAD markets for ACAD and SolidWorks were mature before their academic programs existed.
Supporting Academic users once the market is ESTABLISHED makes sense.
It helps protect market share by seeding replacement workers with a skillset that fills an EXISTING need.
Trying to use Academic users to create an industrial market out of NOTHING is foolish.
It is especially foolish at a time when there already exists a mature computing platform that already owns the market.

There is ZERO market for ACAD on Mac.
This will be up there with several of AutoDesk's colossal failures like Mechanical Desktop.

I'd love to see your cost-benefit analysis for an Engineering and Manufacturing Company with 100 licenses switching their infrastructure to Mac! LOL!

Ask yourself why an academic publisher has shelved their plans for an ACAD on Mac book?

What's your next suggestion for AutoDesk? - ACAD on an SGI Indy Box running Solaris? LOL!

Maybe Apple should start using MIPS chips! ROTFLMAO!

[DF]

FYI DF, I'm a Developer and an Engineer who owns his own business.

So I see: http://www.machinist-toolbox.com/

It's certainly unique to see as your most important 'Partners' the Heritage Foundation and the Club for Growth.

At first blush they make appear similar but
iOS and MacOS markedly different systems and their implementation clearly shows that.
The idea that the difference is "only a couple of APIs" is silly.
Darwin doesn't make them the same.

And running over to Wikipedia to dig up the name 'Darwin' doesn't make you an authority on OS X, which you clearly don't know anything about.

I note with interest that your "MTBpda for iPhone" software only runs on jailbroken iPhones - via an emulator for ancient PalmOS software(!) which it turns out to be.

It's obvious you're a Mac zealot but you're ignorant of how business actually works.
Time for joining us in the real world.

So, the biggest CAD software publishers versus a random dude off the Internet? I know who I'd trust is "in the real world".

The CAD markets for ACAD and SolidWorks were mature before their academic programs existed.

Supporting Academic users once the market is ESTABLISHED makes sense.

This appears to be gobbledygook.

It helps protect market share by seeding replacement workers with a skillset that fills an EXISTING need.
Trying to use Academic users to create an industrial market out of NOTHING is foolish.
It is especially foolish at a time when there already exists a mature computing platform that already owns the market.

I'd guess that all the other CAD vendors other than AutoCAD ought to just shut up shop and go home then, according to your reasoning.

There is ZERO market for ACAD on Mac.

We'll see. Prepared to put your money where your mouth is in a small wager?

This will be up there with several of AutoDesk's colossal failures like Mechanical Desktop.

I'd love to see your cost-benefit analysis for an Engineering and Manufacturing Company with 100 licenses switching their infrastructure to Mac! LOL!

I've been involved in bigger (successful) switch-overs of all kinds of software, and can point you to a multitude of others. I doubt your experience in this matter.

Ask yourself why an academic publisher has shelved their plans for an ACAD on Mac book?

Because in an age of easy digital bootlegs, print publishing is dying...? (as Ralph can testify to, I'll wager)

What's your next suggestion for AutoDesk? - ACAD on an SGI Indy Box running Solaris? LOL!

Maybe Apple should start using MIPS chips! ROTFLMAO!

Apple have already done RISC chips (PowerPC) for over a decade, as you may possibly have heard.

[Henrik Vallgren]

The business case as I understand it is about selling new licenses vs upgrades: on the Mac, it's all new revenue. Some have bought MacBook Pro's and run AutoCAD using boot camp or parallels desktop.

It's a question of application availability: with applications in place, it doesn't really matter what platform you use. Getting ARX developers onto the Mac platform will not be easy. I've been using Apple's XCode for a few years now but still have trouble migrating from Microsoft's Visual Studio.

[Tim Markoski]

DF,

Believe what you want.

That's the trouble with Mac zealots.
Business sense is never a part of any decision they make.
It's always a 'religious' experience.

Whether or not another CAD vendor has success in the Mac market is an entirely different matter.

ACAD on MacOS is going nowhere.
However, AutoDesk has a history of doubling-down on REALLY bad decisions.
It wouldn't surprise me to see them waste millions trying push a product no one actually wants or needs.
Mark MY words, AutoDesk will NEVER turn a profit on ACAD for MacOS.
They still have the Chutzpah to try and sell AutoCAD Mechanical when they have a powerful and popular product like Inventor.

Here's some empirical data to illustrate what has already happened in the real world.

GibbsCAM started out as a MacOS only Product called Virtual Gibbs.
It is now solely a Windows product.
They abandoned Mac when it became clear that the cost didn't justify the expense.
The user base had migrated to Windows based on Cost vs. Benefit.
It was a consistent loser on the balance sheet by Windows NT4.

ACAD on MacOS is a net loser for AutoDesk and all your wishful thinking won't change that.
However, please feel free to keep tilting at Windmills. ;-)

[DF]

@ Tim

I note how the goal posts have shifted from "AutoDesk will kill it very quickly" to "ACAD on MacOS is a net loser for AutoDesk". I guess that means that you're not up for my little wager? Pity.

As well, I don't know (and care less, frankly) about lessons that you claim an obscure piece of CNC software tell the world about Mac OS X. There's diminishing returns to be had from engaging with trolls.

[DF]

However, AutoDesk has a history of doubling-down on REALLY bad decisions.
It wouldn't surprise me to see them waste millions trying push a product no one actually wants or needs.

Apple are at 10% (and a close 4th place) in US market share in the last quarter.

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1451742

Your move.

[DF]

I also note how the goal posts have shifted from "AutoDesk will kill it very quickly" to now "ACAD on MacOS is a net loser for AutoDesk". I guess that means that you're not up for my little wager?

As well, I don't particularly care about your claims about an obscure piece of CNC software having insight about Mac OS X (and particularly for a piece of software that Googling tells me was from the OS9 era, a difference you may want to look into).

There's diminishing returns to be had from engaging with trolls, alas.

[Dave Ault]

Where do you even start with people who insist that spending twice as much for the same made in China components, or indeed even lesser quality components such as the pitifull selection of graphics cards Mac offers, is proof of cutting edge tech and savy shrewd "investments" in their future. Give me a Dell Workstation and for half the money I've got something that will blow any Mac out of the water and as a trivial benefit it handles 95% of all programs out there. Macs do come with status in certain limited demographical areas and that may be all thats important after all, if status in a limited group is your bag.

[Anthony Frausto-Robledo, LEED AP]

Tim Markoski,

Your comments are as fictional as they are aligned with obvious bias. Keep trying to convince yourself.

[Tim Markoski]

That's Rich!

Mac fanbois delude themselves into thinking there is a market, in the real world, for AutoCAD on Mac and I'm this biased one? FROTFLMAO!

Please....

For all the attention to the education market Apple has, I find it truly amazing it hasn't bought them any new market share after DECADES.
Gee, I wonder why?

This latest boondoggle by AutoDesk will be no different.

[DF]

FROTFLMAO!

The sound of irrelevancy? Good luck with your PalmOS, sorry, 'iPhone' development career.

[Tim Markoski]

Sorry to disappoint you DF. ;-)

Most mobile apps now are simply loss leaders for their developers.
Very few actually turn a profit.
The cost benefit analysis didn't justify the expense in developing a native iOS version of our mobile apps.
I'll be damned if I'm giving Apple a 30% vig for the privilege of compiling an Objective C app.

As Android matures, we'll take another look look.

Most of my coding these days is for Windows 64-Bit.
Mostly high-level CAD/CAM Process Automation of Multi-Taking Machining Operations as part of ongoing Lean Manufacturing initiatives.

When it come to Manufacturing Engineering, MacOS isn't even a pimple on a flea's butt.

[DF]

@ Tim Markowski

You may want to do some actual research before committing yourself to Android - last I heard, Google only gives the developer the same 70% share of revenue as Apple (or Microsoft).

It's amusing that you clearly want to cash in on the iOS market, but can't be assed to do actual development work.

[Tim Markoski]

DF,

No developer is locked in to using the Android Marketplace as the ONLY means of distribution
FTR, Android is an OPEN system and growing market.

You really need to get a life.
Some of us actually develop products that people WANT to buy.

Others, like yourself, are perpetual ne'er-do-wells who love to criticize but have little skill for anything useful in the real world.

I bid you, Adieu.